This is a rather technical post, and is a necessary defense of the Biblical foundation of the message of grace that I am teaching. To all who are not able or willing to follow all of this, I apologize in advance. I hope you might try to read it anyway, there is some really great juicy stuff in this discussion.
A response from my friend Robert Krauss quotes Jesus:
The Word made Flesh (Yeshua) said:
“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah – not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” (Matthew 5:17-21)
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My response:
From the tenor of the verses you chose, and because I know from our history what you are trying to say, let me paraphrase your interpretation. This verse says something quite contrary to your message of unconditional love and grace and total forgiveness now and forever. Jesus teaches us that He came to complete the Law – to make it really stick. Every little jot and tittle, every dot on every ‘i’ and every cross on every ‘t’, will be required of each man. It clearly says that whoever OBEYS them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. You can’t just believe and wander on in forgiveness still sinning, you have to obey! Jesus says so, it says so here in black and white. Or rather, in red letters.
In response to what I take your meaning to be:
What does “complete” mean, as He says, not to abolish, but to complete? It means we are supposed to adhere to and live under the Torah, the OT law? Is that what it means? But it says “I (Jesus) have come … to complete.” Are you saying that WE, His followers, are to complete it, by obeying it? On the contrary, no less than the apostle John says:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8, NKJV.
If we thus have sin, if we don’t deceive ourselves, if we are truthful, doesn’t that imply that WE can’t complete the law in that sense? So, it must mean that He, rather than we, are referred to in “completing” the Law.
Now, Matthew 5:17-21 clearly says, we should not teach others to disobey, lest we be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Does the message of grace, of complete mercy, teach others to disobey? In Paul’s words, “shall we sin more that grace might increase?” Of course it does not. Let’s skip to the good part:
“there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Romans 8:1
follows romans 7:
15* For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16* But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
Teaching that the law is good does not mean one is empowered to keep it. In fact, if Romans 7 were not true then Romans 8:1 would not be necessary would it? Or do you not really believe the writings of Paul? In that case you are a Jew in fact, not a Christian. What is Paul’s solution? Let’s read on:
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” Romans 8:2-6, NKJV.
So, we see that the mind set on the flesh, the mind set on the law, the mind set to do the law under human power, is death. It spells this out so clearly here, that the law could NOT achieve freedom or virtue, being weak through the “flesh”, through individual non-supernatural human power. Christian virtue is supernatural, you cannot strip the work and stirring and empowering of the Holy Spirit from the Christian way of virtue. But the requirement of the law is fulfilled by Christ, fulfilled in us. The law is, so to speak, completed in Christ, in that it requires punishment or justice for sin, and Jesus suffered and died to fulfill that requirement. Yes, the propitiatory death of Jesus is the way he “completed” the law. It certainly isn’t that we fulfill it or are sinless or even come close to fulfilling even the important parts.
Let’s move on in the Matthew 5:17 passage. What is the ‘righteousness far greater than that’ of the pharisees? Does he mean, their moral fiber is far greater? Then how is it that JESUS teaches this in Luke 18:
10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer.
11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, “God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.
12 “I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’
13 “But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’
14 “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.”
The Pharisee prays truly that he does these things. It isn’t enough; doing the Torah, the Law, isn’t enough! Who among us even does as good as this guy? He always fasts twice a week! Our righteousness has to exceed all of that? But the tax-gatherer went away justified, NOT THE PHARISEE!!! HIS righteousness did indeed exceed the pharisee’s, and he didn’t do any of those good things. Right? So how does this work? If your interpretation of what Jesus means by ‘abolish’ and ‘complete’ the Law is correct, then He must be schizophrenic or insane, or at best a very poor and inconsistent teacher. But He is not, because that is not what He means.
I’ll tell you exactly what it is, the little secret that so few people have put together. This is the part I hope everyone carries away from this post, if they couldn’t follow anything else. Jesus thinks exactly like Paul, Paul in fact learned it all from Jesus. Jesus does fulfill the law, JESUS fulfills the law. No one else does. All have sinned. All sin. ALL. Jesus offers true forgiveness while upholding the law, that is the miracle of salvation. The law is, as Paul says, “a tutor” that leads us to mercy.
Rather, the one who seeks mercy acknowledges, in fact KEEPS -holds on to the truest intent and precept of – the law more truly than the one who pretends to adhere to it and thinks they have no need of mercy. The confessor, the seeker of mercy, submits the inner secrets of the soul more truly to the law than the religious poser. It is forgiveness which adheres most closely to the law, saying in all its implications and inner motivations that it is true. The one who believes in grace can apply the law most deeply to himself, because he seeks not self-righteousness but forgiveness for the truth of his life. It is mercy that opens the door to the kind of inner transformation that can really fulfill the law without regret or wrong motivation.
In closing, notice this: the ‘legalistic’ way of looking
at this is set at odds with Paul’s teachings. It can’t be good to throw out Paul’s epistles can it? My way of looking at this preserves a strong interpretation of both passages easily. Not only is it true, but more free and happy. I would rather believe in mercy and grace and beat my chest as a fully acknowledged sinner because it is true and it is actually doable, and leads to a deeper and more honest holiness. Plus, walking away justified is a great and wonderful thing, much better than I deserve – but after all, I’m not God, God is. I didn’t make any of His ways up, He did.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."Fulfilling the Law means that he will meet the requirements toward him being the true Messiah pointed to in the Torah and the Prophets. Did I miss the point in history since Yeshua was alive where heaven and earth passed away?He didn't mince words. No ambiguity here that I see. Argue with your savior, He said it not me!Jesus said his YOKE was easy. He never said that there was no YOKE! (a cheap Matrix movie reference for those keeping score at home) Paul had no authority to cancel the Torah in any context. Besides he obeyed the Torah until death despite being a self proclaimed chief of sinners.By the way, What is wrong with being a Jew? In the bible the word "Christian" meant a follower of the Judaic messiah Yeshua. Yeshua (Jesus)is a Jew. Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul) was a Jew and a Pharisee! The disciples were Jews. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seem to be the original Jews. Moses was a Jew. Need I continue? Sounds like pretty good company to me. None of those people called themselves "Christians" in the context of a separate group replacing the Jews as Gods chosen people. The Bible never teaches that you are justified through obedience to the Torah. It can be argued that Cain and his offering were rejected because of his lack of faith or improper attitude about his act of obedience. In Isaiah God said: "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen.The sacrifices and offerings were because we never hit the mark and so by God's grace and mercy He gave us a way to make it right so that He could still hang out with us. (my translation) Jesus replaced the Aaronic priesthood and was the blood offering to ensure His fellowship with His people without breaking His covenants (old or new). Covenants by the way are not contracts, they are perpetual and cannot be canceled.God will not be patronized, fooled or manipulated by us. God will accept or reject us solely at his discretion. We cannot force God to accept us by superficial obedience to His Torah nor by mere lip service professing Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. Fortunately He chose to give us Grace by Faith in Him by His authority and mercy. This makes the Treasure even more valuable and worth selling all I have to buy the field (including his Torah)!!Robert
Robert, I love you man, but I've read this response about 10 times and I am having trouble following your reasoning. I'm not even sure what what you mean about fulfilling the law. If it means He just is the Messiah predicted, then what's the big argument? However, what about the moral requirements of the Law? Does He not fulfill those as well? You seem to be mixing that up in your conception of the YOKE, but you don't have the clarity to come out and say so in your opening paragraph. Also, in your conception of the yoke you tie that into Jesus' fulfillment of the Law, meaning our own adherence to the Law is part of His fulfillment. Can our disobedience cancel His fulfillment of the Law?Doesn't His propitiatory death have anything to do with His fulfillment of the requirement of the law, as Paul says,“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,” Romans 8:3, NKJV.(I might add that there about 10,000 verses by numerous NT authors that also make this point – as you know.)I think it will be helpful to quote the whole passage about the yoke:"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."This is spoken directly against the Torah experts, the pharisees, in context. He means something entirely different than perfect adherence to the OT law. What is His yoke? He spells it out a very few verses later in yet another argument with the religious people:Mt 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.This "argue with your savior" statement is incendiary and condescending, you really shouldn't go there. You imply that I'm not in dialog with my savior and that really isn't your place any more than it would be my place to say something like that.==continued in next post==
As far as Paul's position on the Law, you're not acknowledging that I'm not saying that the law passes away; Paul doesn't 'cancel' the law. What DOES Paul say about the purpose and place of the law? I would suggest that until you labor to answer that question clearly you are missing the mark. This is the gist of my position and until you look at it squarely we are going to have a tough time dialoging about this. I'm not going into it again here because I have numerous blog posts which go into this, and we have the epistles and such as well.BTW of course there is nothing wrong with being a Jew, but I am saying that if you think that adherence to the law, taking on that 'yoke', is a fundamental requirement, then you are really not squarely in the Christian camp. You're more in the Jewish camp. I'm not saying that being Jewish is bad, I'm saying that that position is not Christian, it is Jewish.Now, if you think that the Bible never teaches that you are justified through obedience to the Torah, then you believe in total free forgiveness and 100% grace like me! Awesome, welcome to the party! Let's stop haggling over this and get on with the joy over it! OTOH, what are you saying at all if you think the Bible doesn't say to adhere to the law?You also never answered the point that Jesus taught that the law abiding Pharisee went away condemned while the sinful tax-gatherer went away justified. How is that? Apparently the tax-gatherer had righteousness which exceeded the pharisee's. How is that so? Come on now, I am pressing that point, ignore it and your whole house of cards falls. You are implying that I am patronizing or manipulating God. I challenge that. I would ask you this, if you think that belief in grace, mercy, forgiveness, God as the Father of the prodigal, is patronizing, manipulating, or fooling God, I don't know what to say to that. In what sense is such a position manipulating God? I would say that the pharisaical position that by adherence to human moral performance we can gain power in prayer is far more manipulative of God than any belief in grace. Grace admits we are indebted and powerless and genuinely sinful yet appeals to God as a loving father who is willing to forgive.
The "argument" is that Grace doesn't replace the "Law" as you call it. It isn't a choice between Torah or Grace. It is Torah and Grace. Yeshua in Matthew 12 isn't arguing against the Torah, He is arguing for correct understanding of it.We cannot possibly understand Jesus message outside of Judaic culture and correct understanding of the OT.I regret that you would personalize what I am saying. You have not answered me though in regards to heaven and earth passing away. I have looked at every translation I could find (Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew) and there is no misunderstanding about what he said. So your argument isn't with me, rather it is with Jesus.His death and blood sacrifice are to atone for our sins as a replacement for the old temple and animal (blood) sacrificial system. It doesn't replace the Law. Why then did all his disciples and Paul obey the Law until their deaths? Where they stupid? Did they think that Grace didn't apply to them?I am a follower of the Jewish Rabbi Yeshua not heretical anti Semites who twisted Gods word to suit their political agendas.I love you to Jim with no "but's" attached. I don't have an agenda, rather I am trying to understand what God teaches us through his Word (written and flesh). I am on the Grace team until it is manipulated to encourage disobedience.Robert
So there is no misunderstanding on my last post…..I believe that I could easily challange rabbi Paul as the "chief of all sinners. No one answers to me of course. If I reflect my opinion it should be heard with caution if not outright skeptisism. I am trying my best to stick to scripture properly interpreted in context. God alone knows our hearts whereas all we can do is judge others by their outsides. That is why we aren't to judge others.The 2nd century church is where the roots of anti-semitism and manipulation of the Jewish Jesus took root for politcal reasons. In no way do I consider Jim McNeely an anti-semite.Replacement theology is heresy. Even though we still adhere to some of Marcion's crazy teachings remember he was excommunicated as a heretic.Also we can't argue against direct quotes with our interpretations of parables. We cannot follow God's perfect instructions (Torah) without Grace through Faith. The Torah is part of the Mosaic Covenant dilivered directly from YHWH himself. God NEVER breaks His Covenants. The Pharasee's observance of Torah went overboard. Their observance would be like a society that had 55mph speed limits making a law that you cannot use wheeled vehicles or travel downhill so that it would be impossible to break the Law. What Yeshua taught against was primarily going against the spirit of the Law or the Shema.I am willing to debate this at length because you did say that followers of Jesus are not under the Law (Torah). Robert
Well, I don't mean to play the 'don't argue with me, argue with the Bible' game, but I do want to give a scripture which clearly says that Christians are no longer under the Law:“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” Romans 3:19-24, NKJV. (emphasis is mine)
In fact, this move away from the Law to justification by faith and grace is the very beating heart of Paul's message. He was incredibly adamant about not requiring Gentiles to adhere to the law.The other thing I'm saying is that when Paul talks about the Law, he means the whole Law, all of it, every command, obscure and clear. The big 10, and the rules about wave offerings. Where does he ever pick and choose which pieces he puts under the umbrella of the Law and which pieces he reserves for Christians to still be obligated to? This was a fairly recent observation for me to assimilate.
BTW if anyone else comes along and reads this little debate, you have to understand that Robert and I have been friends for years, and this is a friendly exchange. He and I like to go at it, so don't think there is some kind of hostility between warring camps here. We are more like iron that sharpens iron; thinking Christians disagree and debate and work things out, I think it is part of our freedom.
The term "justified" is derived from the same word that is translated as "righteousness". In other words no one can ever become acceptable to God by their deeds. The problem is that no one was ever justified by the Law. Scripture never says one can be accepted by God by their works but instead by His Grace and Mercy received by ones faith in Him and His promises resulting in heartfelt obedience to His perfect teaching (His Torah). In His love, mercy and justice he provided (in His Torah and later in Christ) ways for us to atone for our mistakes (misguided activities) so that we could remain in His presence despite our imperfections. The summary (or outline) of Torah is to love the one and only God (De 6:5, De 10:12, 11:1, 11:13, ect..) and to Love others (Lev. 19:18, Lev 19:34 and in the Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle" "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."Why then would Master Yeshua or Rabbi Paul cancel anything summarized in that way? They both were trying to dispel improper understanding of scripture not throw it out with the bathwater. God's Grace is demonstrated by his providing the blood sacrifice in his Law for when (not if) we screw up. Covenants cannot be annulled like contracts so God substituted Master Yeshua, His only Son, descendant of the Levites and the house of Judah to serve as the legitimate Temple Priest and the blood sacrifice to replace (not cancel) the part of the Torah involving animal/blood sacrifices. It is more properly understood as a "Better Covenant" when the term "New Covenant" is used. So in summary:1. Paul never had the authority to cancel God's Law period, end of story.2. The Romans verses have everything to do with Gods requirements put forth in the Torah and summarized in the Shema. Robert's translation: One must obey God from heartfelt faith that He is the One God and King whom that person loves deeply or the actions of that person, no matter how they line up with Gods commands, are useless to God. You must Love God AND obey him. This isn't a buffet. ;-)3. Heaven and Earth still haven't passed away!! LOL ;-)Robert